ear with him. I'm quite curious to see whether you know him again.
He'll be down presently; he's upstairs just now, resting a little on the
sofa. But do sit down, my dear Pastor.

MANDERS. Thank you. Are you quite at liberty--?

MRS. ALVING. Certainly. [She sits by the table.]

MANDERS. Very well. Then let me show you--[He goes to the chair where
his travelling-bag lies, takes out a packet of papers, sits down on
the opposite side of the table, and tries to find a clear space for
the papers.] Now, to begin with, here is--[Breaking off.] Tell me, Mrs.
Alving, how do these books come to be here?

MRS. ALVING. These books? They are books I am reading.

MANDERS. Do you read this sort of literature?

MRS. ALVING. Certainly I do.

MANDERS. Do you feel better or happier for such reading?

MRS. ALVING. I feel, so to speak, more secure.

MANDERS. That is strange. How do you mean?

MRS. ALVING. Well, I seem to find explanation and confirmation of all
sorts of things I myself have been thinking. For that is the wonderful
part of it, Pastor Minders--there is really nothing new in these books,
nothing but what most people think and believe. Only most people either
don't formulate it to themselves, or else keep quiet about it.

MANDERS. Great heavens! Do you really believe that most people--?

MRS. ALVING. I do, indeed.

MANDERS. But surely not in this country? Not here among us?

MRS. ALVING. Yes, certainly; here as elsewhere.

MANDERS. Well, I really must say--!

MRS. ALVING. For the rest, what do you object to in these books?

MANDERS. Object to in them? You surely do not suppose that I have
nothing better to do than to study such publications as these?

MRS. ALVING. That is to say, you know nothing of what you are
condemning?

MANDERS. I have read enough about these writings to disapprove of them.

MRS. ALVING. Yes; but your own judgment--

MANDERS. My dear Mrs. Alving, there are many occasions in life when one
must rely upon others. Things are so ordered in this world; and it is
well that they are. Otherwise, what would become of society?

MRS. ALVING. Well, well, I daresay you're right there.

MANDERS. Besides, I of course do not deny that there may be much that
is attractive in such books. Nor can I blame you for wishing to keep
up with the intellectual movements that are said to be going on in the
great world-where you have let your son pass so much of his life. But--

MRS. ALVING. But?

MANDERS.