you shall hear from
me what I deem to be true pleasures. Having thus examined the nature of
pleasure from both points of view, we will bring her up for judgment.

PROTARCHUS: Well said.

SOCRATES: Then let us enter into an alliance with these philosophers
and follow in the track of their dislike. I imagine that they would
say something of this sort; they would begin at the beginning, and
ask whether, if we wanted to know the nature of any quality, such as
hardness, we should be more likely to discover it by looking at the
hardest things, rather than at the least hard? You, Protarchus, shall
answer these severe gentlemen as you answer me.

PROTARCHUS: By all means, and I reply to them, that you should look at
the greatest instances.

SOCRATES: Then if we want to see the true nature of pleasures as a
class, we should not look at the most diluted pleasures, but at the most
extreme and most vehement?

PROTARCHUS: In that every one will agree.

SOCRATES: And the obvious instances of the greatest pleasures, as we
have often said, are the pleasures of the body?

PROTARCHUS: Certainly.

SOCRATES: And are they felt by us to be or become greater, when we
are sick or when we are in health? And here we must be careful in our
answer, or we shall come to grief.

PROTARCHUS: How will that be?

SOCRATES: Why, because we might be tempted to answer, 'When we are in
health.'

PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is the natural answer.

SOCRATES: Well, but are not those pleasures the greatest of which
mankind have the greatest desires?

PROTARCHUS: True.

SOCRATES: And do not people who are in a fever, or any similar illness,
feel cold or thirst or other bodily affections more intensely? Am I not
right in saying that they have a deeper want and greater pleasure in the
satisfaction of their want?

PROTARCHUS: That is obvious as soon as it is said.

SOCRATES: Well, then, shall we not be right in saying, that if a person
would wish to see the greatest pleasures he ought to go and look, not at
health, but at disease? And here you must distinguish:--do not imagine
that I mean to ask whether those who are very ill have more pleasures
than those who are well, but understand that I am speaking of the
magnitude of pleasure; I want to know where pleasures are found to be
most intense. For, as I say, we have to discover what is pleasure, and
what they mean by pleasure who deny her very existence.

PROTARCHUS: I think I follow you.

SOCRATE