ve derived philosophy and
all the liberal sciences from them, still there are things which may be
allowable for them to do, but not for us. The Stoics are at variance with
the Peripatetics. One sect denies that anything is good which is not also
honourable: the other asserts that it allows great weight, indeed, by far
the most weight, to what is honourable, but still affirms that there are
in the body also, and around the body, certain positive goods. It is an
honourable contest and a splendid discussion. For the whole question is
about the dignity of virtue.

But when one is arguing with philosophers of your school, one is forced to
hear a great deal about even the obscure pleasures which Epicurus himself
continually mentions. You cannot then, Torquatus, believe me, you cannot
uphold those principles, if you examine into yourself, and your own
thoughts and studies. You will, I say, be ashamed of that picture which
Cleanthes was in the habit of drawing with such accuracy in his
description. He used to desire those who came to him as his pupils, to
think of Pleasure painted in a picture, clad in beautiful robes, with
royal ornaments, and sitting on a throne. He represented all the Virtues
around her, as her handmaidens, doing nothing else, and thinking nothing
else their duty, but to minister to Pleasure, and only just to whisper in
her ear (if, indeed, that could be made intelligible in a picture) a
warning to be on her guard to do nothing imprudent, nothing to offend the
minds of men, nothing from which any pain could ensue. We, indeed, they
would say, we Virtues are only born to act as your slaves; we have no
other business.

XXII. But Epicurus (for this is your great point) denies that any man who
does not live honourably can live agreeably; as if I cared what he denies
or what he affirms. What I inquire is, what it is consistent for that man
to say who places the chief good in pleasure. What reason do you allege
why Thorius, why Chius, why Postumius, why the master of all these men,
Orata, did not live most agreeably? He himself, as I have already said,
asserts that the life of men devoted to luxury is not deserving of blame,
unless they are absolute fools, that is to say, unless they abandon
themselves to become slaves to their desires or to their fears. And when
he promises them a remedy for both these things, he, in so doing, offers
them a licence for luxury. For if you take away these things, then he says
that