to fainting fits from exhaustion. His face had the pallor that was common
before such attacks, and his lips were white. But he evidently did not
want to break up the party. He seemed to have some special object of his
own in keeping them. What object? Alyosha watched him intently.

"We are discussing this gentleman's most interesting article," said Father
Iosif, the librarian, addressing the elder, and indicating Ivan. "He
brings forward much that is new, but I think the argument cuts both ways.
It is an article written in answer to a book by an ecclesiastical
authority on the question of the ecclesiastical court, and the scope of
its jurisdiction."

"I'm sorry I have not read your article, but I've heard of it," said the
elder, looking keenly and intently at Ivan.

"He takes up a most interesting position," continued the Father Librarian.
"As far as Church jurisdiction is concerned he is apparently quite opposed
to the separation of Church from State."

"That's interesting. But in what sense?" Father Zossima asked Ivan.

The latter, at last, answered him, not condescendingly, as Alyosha had
feared, but with modesty and reserve, with evident goodwill and apparently
without the slightest _arriere-pensee_.

"I start from the position that this confusion of elements, that is, of
the essential principles of Church and State, will, of course, go on for
ever, in spite of the fact that it is impossible for them to mingle, and
that the confusion of these elements cannot lead to any consistent or even
normal results, for there is falsity at the very foundation of it.
Compromise between the Church and State in such questions as, for
instance, jurisdiction, is, to my thinking, impossible in any real sense.
My clerical opponent maintains that the Church holds a precise and defined
position in the State. I maintain, on the contrary, that the Church ought
to include the whole State, and not simply to occupy a corner in it, and,
if this is, for some reason, impossible at present, then it ought, in
reality, to be set up as the direct and chief aim of the future
development of Christian society!"

"Perfectly true," Father Paissy, the silent and learned monk, assented
with fervor and decision.

"The purest Ultramontanism!" cried Miuesov impatiently, crossing and
recrossing his legs.

"Oh, well, we have no mountains," cried Father Iosif, and turning to the
elder he continued: "Observe the answer he makes to the following
'funda