ds, Socrates, always appear to me
to be good words; and yet, like the rest of the world, I am not quite
convinced by them. (Compare Symp.: 1 Alcib.)

SOCRATES: The reason is, Callicles, that the love of Demus which abides
in your soul is an adversary to me; but I dare say that if we recur
to these same matters, and consider them more thoroughly, you may be
convinced for all that. Please, then, to remember that there are two
processes of training all things, including body and soul; in the one,
as we said, we treat them with a view to pleasure, and in the other with
a view to the highest good, and then we do not indulge but resist them:
was not that the distinction which we drew?

CALLICLES: Very true.

SOCRATES: And the one which had pleasure in view was just a vulgar
flattery:--was not that another of our conclusions?

CALLICLES: Be it so, if you will have it.

SOCRATES: And the other had in view the greatest improvement of that
which was ministered to, whether body or soul?

CALLICLES: Quite true.

SOCRATES: And must we not have the same end in view in the treatment
of our city and citizens? Must we not try and make them as good as
possible? For we have already discovered that there is no use in
imparting to them any other good, unless the mind of those who are to
have the good, whether money, or office, or any other sort of power, be
gentle and good. Shall we say that?

CALLICLES: Yes, certainly, if you like.

SOCRATES: Well, then, if you and I, Callicles, were intending to set
about some public business, and were advising one another to undertake
buildings, such as walls, docks or temples of the largest size, ought
we not to examine ourselves, first, as to whether we know or do not know
the art of building, and who taught us?--would not that be necessary,
Callicles?

CALLICLES: True.

SOCRATES: In the second place, we should have to consider whether we
had ever constructed any private house, either of our own or for our
friends, and whether this building of ours was a success or not; and if
upon consideration we found that we had had good and eminent masters,
and had been successful in constructing many fine buildings, not only
with their assistance, but without them, by our own unaided skill--in
that case prudence would not dissuade us from proceeding to the
construction of public works. But if we had no master to show, and only
a number of worthless buildings or none at all, then, surely, it would
b